tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23253782.post903061656942919516..comments2024-03-03T17:01:57.876-05:00Comments on Montreal Simon: Progressive Bloggers and the Abortion BattleSimonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15309809679331128837noreply@blogger.comBlogger39125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23253782.post-9664817704264197982012-04-25T22:25:45.861-04:002012-04-25T22:25:45.861-04:00…/2
When I had my abortion, it was in the best ho...…/2<br /><br />When I had my abortion, it was in the best hospital in Aberystwith, Wales, UK. The doctor who operated on me was addressed to as 'Mr'. I did not understand. I asked my husband how come that was so. He explained that in the British system, when you have risen high in the medical hierarchy, your title changes from 'Dr.' to 'Mr.' That's how I knew that he must have been one among the best doctors to operate on me. He was very kind and considerate. <br /><br />I wouldn't wish my mother's experience on any woman, or mine at my mother's side on any child. Scot's remark that such matters are 'trivial' awoke those bad memories. For better or for worse, we are the bearer of the offsprings of our species. It is at the core of who we are as a human being, even if we decide not to have any offsprings. For Scot not to have understood that shows not only a rather shallow mindset, but a dismissal of our gender that for me at any rate has been painful.Genehttp://thecylinder.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23253782.post-62184532184866506322012-04-25T22:25:05.085-04:002012-04-25T22:25:05.085-04:00Hi Simon, I revisited your blog today only to find...Hi Simon, I revisited your blog today only to find that you had replied to my previous comment. I'm sorry I got kinda side-tracked in my thoughts there. I did not mean to imply that you said the debate was 'trivial'; Scot Tribe did. Indeed, that was the main reason I decided to quit PB. I could have lived with the ugliness, as you say. Debate can be that way sometimes. But for me, there was more.<br /><br />I was 11 or 12 years old when my mom had an abortion - the back-alley kind. I was not aware of it then. All I knew was that one morning, I found her panic-stricken in her room. She asked me to go to my uncle who did not live far from where I lived and ask him to fetch my aunts - her sisters. My father was absent at that point in time. I ran over to my uncle who went on his bicycle to fetch my aunts. Meanwhile, I returned to my mother only to find her panting on her bed. All around the room, on the floor, were clots of blood. She asked me to clean the floor. It was a very difficult task to do. I was scared and unable to retrieve many of the clots of blood. When her sisters arrived, they took care of her and of the cleaning. Given my young age, they did not care to explain what was happening. I would know much later. It was a distressing and traumatic experience. … 2/…Genehttp://thecylinder.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23253782.post-4661922386832368502012-04-20T19:44:37.658-04:002012-04-20T19:44:37.658-04:00If it was time we all moved on it seems odd to ext...If it was time we all moved on it seems odd to extend the 15 minutes to belittle another person. <br /><br />You may justify your claims however you wish but Woodworth brought up facts and medical opinion, your unexplained dismissal of them speaks loudly enough of your credibility, let alone your failure to attempt to understand my position. <br /><br />Unlike you, I needed to try to understand your position before I thought you were ignorant, I'm glad that's settled.thescottross.blogspot.comhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08632822060893291800noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23253782.post-28912349278296412442012-04-20T09:29:27.806-04:002012-04-20T09:29:27.806-04:00I'm late to this party.
Lookit, this is no bi...I'm late to this party.<br /><br />Lookit, this is no big deal in the grand scheme of things. A blogroll is just a collection of like-minded bloggers. Those of us who headed for the door prefer to be in better company. The site admin wishing us all "good riddance" and calling pro-choice women "shrill" and "banshees" simply confirms us in our belief that we made the right decision.<br /><br />It's called freedom of association. Those of us who see the word "progressive" as linked inextricably to human rights are associating here: http://canadianprogressives.ca/. Come and join us!Dr.Dawghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00416571487451925246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23253782.post-19746963967115737112012-04-20T02:08:16.595-04:002012-04-20T02:08:16.595-04:00hi Scott...I thought it was ignorant because Woodw...hi Scott...I thought it was ignorant because Woodworth did not present a strong argument for the need for a discussion on abortion. Quite to the contrary and for good reason. There is no need for such a divisive discussion. The system works quite well as things are now, the number of abortions is going down, and the issue is best left to a woman and her doctor. I also thought you were a bit naive for not realizing what an internet storm your post would cause. And I'm saddened by the results. But it's only my very humble opinion eh? And as I said in my post, it's time we all moved on...Simonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15309809679331128837noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23253782.post-90866855393398638252012-04-18T19:04:34.756-04:002012-04-18T19:04:34.756-04:00Please explain how my post was naive or ignorant.Please explain how my post was naive or ignorant.thescottross.blogspot.comhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08632822060893291800noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23253782.post-79962362147888179852012-04-15T04:50:24.791-04:002012-04-15T04:50:24.791-04:00hi rww...You ask a lot of good questions, some of ...hi rww...You ask a lot of good questions, some of which I asked in my post. I too am not sure if anything other than self-identifying as progressives is workable. And when I look at the blogroll that's what I see. Unless someone is consistently and deliberately misogynistic, homophobic, racist etc I can't see the moderators tossing them out. And I certainly don't want to vote to throw anyone off the island. For once you start down that road where will it end? And who will throw the first stone?<br />Is this a non-progressive blog post? I suppose some people probably think it is but I don't. I know who I am, I know my motives are noble, and nobody is going to tell me differently...Simonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15309809679331128837noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23253782.post-54846528727225461062012-04-15T04:40:30.660-04:002012-04-15T04:40:30.660-04:00hi Niles...I really don't know what to say. I&...hi Niles...I really don't know what to say. I'm troubled by the images you describe. I may have to write a post about them to properly describe my feelings. What I do know is that I'm sad, I'm not sorry about trying to find a way for all concerned to emerge from this angry exchange in a more positive. Only sorry that I failed. And now of course it's too late. Everyone must lie in the bed they made for themselves, and life goes on...Simonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15309809679331128837noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23253782.post-86788708733409852392012-04-15T04:34:11.169-04:002012-04-15T04:34:11.169-04:00hi Gene...thanks for your thoughtful comment. I ag...hi Gene...thanks for your thoughtful comment. I agree with a lot you say, and I certainly never called the debate "trivial." I also agree that PB is a blogging community, but what I meant about "religious order" was that it shouldn't be a place where one muddled and clearly wrong post should get you excommunicated. As I said in my post I thought this should have been an opportunity to educate people, and should not have led to such ugliness. Unless the bloggers involved had a track record of questioning women's rights, and in this case I honestly don't see it. I am quite sure that 98 per cent of Progressive Bloggers support a woman's right to choose, and attacking each other does nobody any good....Simonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15309809679331128837noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23253782.post-17413685178606805302012-04-14T23:10:29.395-04:002012-04-14T23:10:29.395-04:00I'm just not sure where we draw the line or ho...I'm just not sure where we draw the line or how. I've seen what I've considered to be anti-worker posts on PB blogs that I don't consider progressive. PB is a blog aggregator, not a publisher. I'm not sure if anything other than self-identifying as progressive is workable. Do we base expulsion on a pattern of non progressive blog posts or if you make one non-progressive post are you out. Do we give the moderators ultimate expulsion rights or do we have to vote on expulsions. Which issues are worthy of expulsion, does it include workers rights or just women's rights.<br /><br />Is this a non-progressive blog post.rwwhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00512582677240907287noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23253782.post-65344559790482937962012-04-13T11:01:21.551-04:002012-04-13T11:01:21.551-04:00I've been quietly watching this unfold and I h...I've been quietly watching this unfold and I have to say, Niles, that is a brilliant analogy.Jacquihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12713947448750349060noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23253782.post-13299622310596694912012-04-11T17:40:43.983-04:002012-04-11T17:40:43.983-04:00Mr Simon, no one blames you for wanting harmony in...Mr Simon, no one blames you for wanting harmony inside the cave when the wolf is at the door. Trouble is, some inside the cave started talking about amputating part of a woman's personhood to throw out to the wolf because it wasn't like actually throwing out all of her to be eaten.<br /><br />Except, those in the cave, especially the women, had seen that happen to other women in caves further south, only to watch more and more womanly person parts get tossed out the door to the wolf and many women could remember their aunts and grandmothers getting tossed out bodily and bloodily to the wolf.<br /><br />Meanwhile, the cave owners decided such talk of expendable parts was ok for the cave population's intellectual entertainment, never mind what the partable forewarned and anyway, it wasn't as if the hunters would be affected. The women could just stick around the cave more and learn to deal with their restrictions.<br /><br />So, when those who were looking at amputation said to themselves, 'we can face the wolf but we can't face the wolf *and* the sharp knives at our backs, it's time to find a new cave, no matter how risky it is' and the response was in essence 'typical selfish wussies for not wanting to hear the logic of how amputation will keep the wolf happy for an hour or so' fresh air sounded like a really good idea.<br /><br />That said, I never came to your site from PB. I got here via links and blogrolls from many of the now ex-cavers and I found some of them off your links after I found I enjoyed your stuff and trusted your opinions (btw: 'allo to the M. Sebastien). I -coff- first saw the aggregator during all this spelunking. Guess I'm really behind the times, eh?Nileshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04096047389811381098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23253782.post-83455871168477157522012-04-11T13:13:01.262-04:002012-04-11T13:13:01.262-04:00Simon, please add this paragraph to my previous co...<em>Simon, please add this paragraph to my previous comment where the last paragraph but one is somewhat muddled. This is more what I would like to say. Thanks and best regards.</em><br /><br />Still, at this point time, those values of liberty and equality are the only ones available to us upon which we, as progressives, can agree. Thus while we may have different points of view about abortion, as progressives aren't we all required to adhere to those notions of individual freedom and equality? It is a conundrum. Until we find a way out of it, at the end of the day, we are on our own.<br /><br />I'll illustrate that with an example ...Genehttp://thecylinder.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23253782.post-67113371942108567482012-04-11T09:49:01.130-04:002012-04-11T09:49:01.130-04:00[…/2]
Abortion thus fuels a self-destructive logi...[…/2]<br /><br /><em><b>Abortion thus fuels a self-destructive logic from which there appears to be no escape without changing the foundations of society.</b><br />[…]<br />Trying to decide the question of abortion in terms of individual rights to liberty and equality and the distinction between the public and the private sphere can only end up by showing that those terms are neither as neutral nor as universal as they seem. <b>They were developed by adult males in early modern times in order to settle disputes amongst themselves that they had for a long time tried, but failed, to solve by violence. If those same terms are used to settle disputes about abortion nowadays, the result will be to prove that the liberty and equality promised by modern society cannot be extended to women without either ignoring differences between the sexes or denying women the rights that men enjoy.</b></em> <br />http://home.uchicago.edu/~icon/written2/separation.pdf<br /><br />Thus, at this point in time, while we may have different points of view about abortion, as progressives we all adhere, or should adhere, to the notion of individual freedom and equality. I’ll illustrate that with an example: I have had an abortion, a decision that for personal reasons I regret today. But that’s me. Far from me to foist my mores on other women and on society. At the end of the day, it is up to each individual to make that decision. <br /><br />On that issue, I do not have difficulty separating my personal feelings from my progressive core values. I understand that for other individuals that might be more difficult. <b>What this whole debate certainly is not though is ‘trivial’.</b>Genehttp://thecylinder.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23253782.post-66133732955603446312012-04-11T09:45:00.712-04:002012-04-11T09:45:00.712-04:00A good post, Simon. I would take issue with this t...A good post, Simon. I would take issue with this though: "This is the internet, not a religious order." <br /><br />'This' is not just 'the Internet'. 'This' is 'an online community', coalesced around an umbrella concept: progressivism. That means, to me at least, that beyond our many different views of the world is a set of core values to which we all adhere.<br /><br />The 'abortion debate', as you call it here, is a good illustration of that. In a paper on the separation of Church and State, Constantin Fasolt wrote about the gordian knot that the issue of abortion presents to humankind: <br /><br /><em>One part is that abortion constitutes a fundamental threat to the distinction between the public and the private sphere. It threatens our ability to reconcile the most fundamental rights of one human being (the mother's right to liberty) with the most fundamental rights of another (the unborn child's right to life). It is therefore impossible to ignore. The other part of the dilemma is that the questions raised by abortion are impossible to answer in terms of the distinction between the public and the private sphere (or that between human live and dead matter). So long as we start with the conviction that mother and unborn child each hold inalienable rights to equality and liberty, abortion can only be treated as an exception from the norm or an anomaly that cannot really be accounted for. So long as the debate is framed in terms of individual rights to liberty and equality, it can only lead to exceptional, anomalous, or arbitrary answers to the question posed. The only rational way to end the debate is to abandon the distinction between the public and the private sphere itself, because it is the use of this distinction that makes it impossible to find a rational solution to the problem of abortion. But dropping that distinction is precisely the one solution that is excluded from the realm of possibilities, because it is the starting point of the debate. How could it possibly be dropped? It is the reason why the debate got underway. Thus dropping it is something of a logical impossibility. There is no logically satisfying chain of reasoning that ends by disproving the truth of the premises on which it rests. It is therefore a political impossibility as well. <b>The distinction between the public and the private sphere figures among the fundamental articles of the modern faith. Its reality cannot even be doubted, much less abandoned, without provoking fear and shaking the religious foundations of the modern polity.</b></em> [/...]Genehttp://thecylinder.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23253782.post-23498666396141697792012-04-11T03:58:12.181-04:002012-04-11T03:58:12.181-04:00hi Dave...I'm sorry that all of this happened....hi Dave...I'm sorry that all of this happened. But I know you're an honourable man who felt you had to do what you did. I'm also sorry that I wasn't able to bring people together, or act as a peacemaker, for the little that would have been worth. But you're probably right. I probably would have flown into a wall of flak, and had my little wings blown off. I'm afraid that's happened before. Oh well, I will of course be following the excellent adventures of you and your galloping pirates. Bon voyage mon Capitaine...Simonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15309809679331128837noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23253782.post-72503397821327193782012-04-11T02:21:48.415-04:002012-04-11T02:21:48.415-04:00Hey Dustin, I don't respect your opinion becau...Hey Dustin, I don't respect your opinion because I'm not an idiot and I have a spine. <br /><br />You fucking lot need to grow one.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23253782.post-54561275651778533022012-04-10T20:24:44.523-04:002012-04-10T20:24:44.523-04:00Hey Dusty:
Wrap your head around this.
Simon'...Hey Dusty:<br /><br />Wrap your head around <a href="http://us.acidcow.com/pics/20100218/kids_giving_finger_04.jpg" rel="nofollow">this</a>.<br /><br />Simon's a sweetheart. I'm not.Orwell's Bastardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17777852618134159328noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23253782.post-75251507985822529632012-04-10T19:47:32.507-04:002012-04-10T19:47:32.507-04:00Simon, I thank you for offering your services. It ...Simon, I thank you for offering your services. It is generous beyond description because I believe you might have ended up in the middle of something bordering nasty. <br /><br />Be assured, TGB is not going anywhere, but there will be, sometime in the next week, a statement of the principles to which we all adhere. While I won't suggest that makes PG less or equal to TGB, it will be something they haven't done. <br /><br />We'll be fine. So will you. So will we all. Perhaps it US purging the system. <br /><br />Now ... if I might ...<br /><br /><b>Dustin</b><br /><i>I support rights for women</i><br /><br />No you don't. And you just dirtied up my good friend's living room. I don't like you anymore. (It's that old Royal Marine Commando coming out in me again).Davehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03203592149876300192noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23253782.post-53747448122913760902012-04-10T14:15:14.298-04:002012-04-10T14:15:14.298-04:00hi Beijing...you know that I adore you too, I'...hi Beijing...you know that I adore you too, I'm very very sorry if my post disappointed you. And I completely understand how you feel. But I am not saying that women and their allies should give an inch in the struggle for human rights and reproductive freedom. I'm not complaining about the angry debate, because women do have a right to be angry. I just hate what's happened, I want to see Dammit Janet back where it belongs because it's such a powerful voice for the feminist movement, so I am just seeking a way reconciliation can happen, and the struggle can go forward stronger than ever. As you know from reading my posts I had problems with anger when I was a teenager. But people like Seb and others taught me that going beyond anger could make me a better and stronger person. So even if you disagree with me, and think that my head is muddled. Which is entirely possible. ;) I hope at least you know that my heart is in the right place...Simonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15309809679331128837noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23253782.post-66208760902429299062012-04-10T14:05:14.859-04:002012-04-10T14:05:14.859-04:00hi Dustin...I respect your opinion, but I simply c...hi Dustin...I respect your opinion, but I simply can't agree with you. No woman wants to have an abortion, but you simply cannot equate the rights of a tiny lump of tissue,with the rights of a living breathing woman. And abortion is not murder. The facts are that there are very few late term abortions, the number of abortions is going down not up. And better sex education, and birth control will do more than any law to reduce them even further...Simonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15309809679331128837noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23253782.post-76840018055234053312012-04-10T13:58:11.899-04:002012-04-10T13:58:11.899-04:00hi Saskboy...thank you, I did want to use the oppo...hi Saskboy...thank you, I did want to use the opportunity to pay tribute to those who administer and moderate Progressive Bloggers. However I don't want to characterize this episode as an "overblown tiff." The fact is it's an emotional issue so it's only natural that people on both sides should be angry. All I'm asking is that we move beyond anger, and unite to fight the real enemy...Simonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15309809679331128837noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23253782.post-91422268790771007022012-04-10T13:56:33.480-04:002012-04-10T13:56:33.480-04:00Love to hear your ideas on how to stop women from ...Love to hear your ideas on how to stop women from perpetrating your perceived "holocaust", Dustin. Forced 'labour' camps maybe?Omarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12058734544373976550noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23253782.post-21181665504860185652012-04-10T13:51:08.446-04:002012-04-10T13:51:08.446-04:00hi Skinny Dipper...thank you, I'm glad you lik...hi Skinny Dipper...thank you, I'm glad you liked my post. As I said I am very uneasy about expelling bloggers for all the reasons you mention. However, as I told Dave and the others I think a general declaration of principles might be a good idea. It doesn't have to be long, in fact the shorter the better. But it would reaffirm what we believe in, and it could offer us all an honourable way out of this sad situation...Simonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15309809679331128837noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23253782.post-42317301828838326122012-04-10T13:46:30.958-04:002012-04-10T13:46:30.958-04:00hi Cathie...thank you, I must admit I was nervous ...hi Cathie...thank you, I must admit I was nervous about writing it, although of course I don't really drink. ;) But I feel much better now, because I feel I have tried my best to bring us all together. And the main thing is to be united to defeat Woodworth's sneaky motion, and of course eventually defeat the Cons. Because as I said in my post if that foul regime wasn't in power none of this would have happened...Simonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15309809679331128837noreply@blogger.com